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Welcome to Salsa and the City!
This is a monthly column by Erin
about Salsa in the Circle City. Salsa has become a lifestyle for some
of us: music, dance, parties, fashion, travel, friends, relationships,
and, did I say dance? For those who are addicted to Salsa, this is a
place where you can read about what's going on in the city, and share
your ideas, comments, and gossip. Erin has been a regular of Indy's
Salsa scene since 1999.
No, But Thank You
by Erin
Lamb
posted April 18, 2006
I have heard many a complaint from the gentlemen of Indy that the women
at the clubs - especially the ones that dance modern salsa - are snobs.
The men say that the women think they are too good to dance with people
they do not know or people who do not dance "their" style. Many women
have also complained to me that they do not know how to turn down men
when they are asked to dance because they are scared of hurting someone’s
feelings. They even asked if it was "ok" to turn down a dance. Obviously,
we have a communication problem.
Rejection is very difficult to take, but at a club there is going to
be rejection of all types - rejection at the door, rejection on the
dance floor, and rejection of the sexual nature. I am happy not to be
a man and to be forced to go chase down my next dance. However guys,
some of you take dance floor rejection too personally. Especially in
recent articles, some of you have been pointing out the fact that I
do not dance a lot at the clubs, and I don’t always dance with that
many people. Here are some reasons why some women, including myself,
may turn down a dance:
1. We’re tired. The ratio of men to women at the club is quite large.
There are lots of guys that want to dance, but not always a lot of women
to dance with at the club. Jazz Kitchen is a good example. When you
walk into Jazz Kitchen at 11:00pm there is always a line of men up against
the front and back wall of the club. If you are a chick and you walk
in, you are often looked at as if you are dinner or "fresh meat" as
we say around here. If you begin dancing at 11:00pm, you could dance
the next 10 songs with 10 different men and still have 10 men wanting
to dance when you are done. The truth is you can only dance so many
songs before you dehydrate or collapse on the dance floor. In my case,
I usually hit the club after teaching 5-6 hours of dance lessons. The
last thing I want to do when I walk in is dance. I like the club because
I actually get to socialize and have a drink with my students and friends.
I don’t always want to dance. Oooooooooooooooh what a sin!
2. We don’t feel comfortable dancing with men we don’t know. I don’t
know how many times I have accepted a dance with an man I have never
met and thought to myself, "He seems friendly, and this is a good song.
What the heck!" Then, two seconds later, I am getting grinded on like
I am the last woman on earth. A random grinder like this can ruin the
fun for everyone. The woman is traumatized, and the good guys have lost
one more opportunity for a dance with her because she is too scared
to take a chance.
3. The dance floor is too crowded. I have felt terrible accepting a
dance on more than one occasion when the dance floor is crowded and
the man with whom I am dancing doesn’t seem to care about crashing me
into other couples. These men get so excited about dancing and showing
their moves that they haven’t noticed that we’ve stepped on, stomped
on, smacked, and kicked every other couple within 5 feet of us. In addition,
I have been kicked and stomped on in the process. This doesn’t make
for a very pleasant dance. Therefore, there are many of us ladies who
would prefer to stay away when the dance floor becomes a battlefield.
Finally, to answer the ladies - Yes, you can turn a man down if you
do not want to dance. However, it is the way you refuse the dance that
is important. I try to avoid excuses and simply say, "No thank you."
If you make an excuse, in the end that is all it is to him, an excuse.
I always appreciate the offer and sometimes I tell the gentlemen that.
But when I am not working, I don’t feel I should have to do anything
I do not want to do, and that includes dancing. For every woman there
is that does not want to dance there is one other that does. I’m sure
the boys will sniff her out.
Thanks to all you guys for your patience and your courtesy, and good
luck to all you ladies looking for the salseros who are also gentlemen!
See you at the club.
Past Columns
Reader's comments
Good article Erin.
I used to take rejection on the dance floor very personal, but now I don't.
I just look for some other woman who wants to dance and that's it. We
(men) just need to move on to the next woman willing to dance. It's no
big deal.
- Salsero Mayor
Hi! Erin! I went to Jazz kitchen last thursday
to dance not to pickup girls. It is hard for me to asked a lady because
I get turned down and they dont know me! Well! I somehow didn't realize
the two beautiful latino girls turned me down last week. I didn't realize
they were good dancer but also thought I was latino and I cant speak there
language. This didnt upset me. I just choose these girls becuase I wanted
to see if I can hang with their dancing. I know I am new at this but I
have been taking lessons at your studio but also teaching myself at home.
So, I can be ahead and learn more as much as I can. I love salsa and also
now I have taught myself how to bachata and Merengue. I have couple of
videos I had purchased to get advanced. Maybe when I am good enough this
lady that had turned me down maybe will dance with me some day! Just letting
you know I haven't had this much fun with Latin dance for a long time.
This is one thing I look forward to every Wednesday at the Red Room. You
and Yang are good teachers with good attitude and very friendy people.
- Vic
As usual very pertinent article Erin. Personally,
I do not turn down dances with guys, I even ask guys to dance with me
especially if I see a guy who might be shy or I see him asking girls and
are turning him down, the guy usually seems surprised and we have fun
dancing. Because we all had beginnings, and I do not look down on anyone
who wants to practice their salsa on the dance floor. But, as you have
said I have danced with a particular guy who decided to use my chest as
a pillow, I continued to move away from him during the dance until I just
walked off the dance floor. Because he disrespected me and I see him doing
that to other girls. I politely tell him "no" whenever he asks
me to dance. I go out to have fun dancing, not to meet guys. If I meet
someone, that is fine, but, I see it as an apportunity to hangout with
my friends, and dance to some great music.
- DN
There are many of us girls out there who are friendly,
reasonably good dancers and not hard on the eyes, but don't get asked
to dance that much. I ask guys to dance at least as much as they ask me.
I would be curious to know from a guy's perspective why they don't ask
if they never see us decline. I just enjoy the dancing. If something more
happens, then that's great, but it's not the reason I'm there. Do most
guys see it differently?
- Chica
I can't really say too much on this article but
you're right Erin, it's the way you turn down the dance that makes all
the difference. If you simply say NO, you can't be forced to dance but
women don't have to be rude about it. Because just like the "grinding"
situation, when a "good looking" female is rude, it gives the
impression that a lot of them are, and it ruins it for the "good
looking" females that are nice and polite AND THAT DO WANT TO DANCE.
You become the type of guy that doesn't feel comfortable asking a good
looking female to dance.
- Gino
The reasons I do not accept offers to dance are:
(1) He's drunk, (2) I've danced with him before and he came on to me inappropriately,
(3) I have danced with him before his style does not match mine, (4) I
have danced with him before and he threw me around, (5) I am tired, (6)
He is much better than me and I know I cannot keep up with him. I usually
do NOT give guys a second chance. But, I do always give them a FIRST chance.
I also ask guys to dance with me all the time. I never care if they reject
me. I never think they are snobs because of it. I try to be friendly with
everyone so that above all else, they know that dancing is separate from
how I feel about them as a PERSON. I have a suggestion for guys: If they
want to dance with a woman they don't know, find someone else who does
know her and get introduced to her first. As for women who do not get
asked to dance, I think it may be because they do not SMILE enough. Anyway,
this is 2006, get out there and ask a guy to dance. Don't just sit around
and miss all the fun!
- A regular salsera
Dam' right!!!! if you don't feel like dancing,
you just don't... too bad. :(
- Laura
I guess the club scene has changed a lot since
the last time I went out, because my experiences were the total opposite.
There were at least 2 women to every man, and most of the girls were more
than willing to dance. Or, maybe the guys are having a tough time, because
they're not really there to dance. They're too busy sweatin' the so-called
"hot-chicks" and/or drunken skirts to notice the hundreds of
other lovely ladies waiting to dance. Stop asking the same 5 girls to
dance fellas, and maybe your luck will change. If I can find a woman to
dance with me anytime I want to, you men shouldn't have any problems.
And that's another thing. This may be a little off the subject, but why
are you men forcing me to lead so damn much? I love leading, but that
isn't my job. IT'S YOURS! Stop bellyachin', and take your place. Do what
is needed to improve your skills, and handle your business. A woman shouldn't
be one of the stronger leads at the club. Also, women shouldn't have to
ask men for a dance. Once again, that's your job. More so than other places,
I feel the salsa scene is the place where the man is supposed to be the
gentleman, the lady a lady, and we all should be polite. Yes, these are
modern times, but this dance was based on an old-fashioned concept. The
women can argue as much as they want, but most of us still like to feel
feminine, and leading all the time or always asking men for a dance doesn't
allow us to do that. Anyway, thanks for letting me blow off a little steam.
All of the extreme feminists and guys with bruised egos can start sending
your hate mail now ;)
- Shayne
Salsa = Fun What's with all the drama? Why all
the competion? I hardly ever see you or Yang dance with any of the beginners.
Tired from teaching? Or just not making money on the dance floor?
- Salsera
I think salsa is not only to dance and have fun,
but salsa is a great opportunity for a man to show the ladies what a gentleman
he is. Salsa is for man to show off the girl on the dancing floor,not
like a dinner plate but like what she is a lady and great dancer. Salseros
are to enjoy the company and be greatful for her company. A piece of advice:
"if you want a girl to dance with you, be a gentleman not just dance
with her all night long and have her company but pleeeease offer her some
water at least" just because you only have one dance doesn't mean
you can't be a gentleman, probably she's been dancing all night long and
just waiting to dance with you and belive you make your fame.
- Vanessa
Salsera, if we can make money dancing with everyone
in the clubs we would be millionaires by now. I don't know where you may
have drawn that conclusion out of this article. I try to dance with as
many girls as I can, but there're only so many dances I could manage a
night. Thanks for the suggestion though. I'll definitely dance with more
beginners. If you want me to dance with you, just ask. I have never turned
down any girls no matter how good they are, or what style they dance.
- Yang
Salsera, Yang dances with beginners all the time,
especially on Wednesdays at the Red Room when he's not busy at the door.
I have seen him many times make the rounds asking ladies of all levels
to dance in order to encourage and assist them. He is extremely patient
with beginners and dancers of all levels. SHAYNE, Thanks for being such
a good lead If all the guys learned to lead like you, we'd never have
a reason to say no!
- Naomi
Erin, I agree with everything in your article.
And my concern is with the fact that guys don't ask the new women in the
environment to dance. They continue to dance with the same women over
and over again. As said by Shayne, I am old- fashioned too, and feel that
the guy should be a MAN and ask the lady to dance. Even if you don't know
her, at least just ask her to dance just once. It is only ONE dance, rather
if she is a good dancer or not. I only have this problem when I go to
the Red Room. I feel so uncomfortable there because I'm just sitting there
most of the night because no one will ask me to dance. The guys there
ask the same women to dance all night, otherwise, the women are asking
the guys to dance. I hope this comment opens some of the mens' eyes that
regularly attend the Red Room. Also, to Yang nd Erin, a suggestion. Maybe
you should dance with people other than just your students and other instructors.
Be a lil more social.
- Salsa Queen
No, thank you Naomi. Without you and all of the
other lovely ladies who were/are gracious enough to let me practice on
them, I wouldn't be the lead that I am today. The time you ladies have
granted to me is greatly appreciated, and I will be forever grateful.
Hopefully, you will continue to do me the honor of leading you. Also,
a big thanks goes out to the true gentlemen who know and accept their
responsibilties as a lead and a man. For women like me, you are a breath
of fresh air. All of you have helped me grow as a dancer and a person.
- Shayne
I'm one that can be recognized as one of Yang &
Erin's students, but Yang was certainly asking me to dance months before
I ever took a class. Now, I ask him to dance at least half the time, and
I do that because I like the challenge. For the most part, I will dance
if I am asked, regardless of the level or style of the lead. There are
a few times when I will say no to a dance. When I do it is most likely
about me and not about the guy who is asking me to dance. Perhaps, I'm
tired or having a great conversation with a girlfriend. Maybe I just don't
like the song or I promised to find someone for the next salsa. Whatever
the reason, it's likely momentary and I'll be willing to dance again soon.
- dance not drama
You know people ask me all the time "Why are
you so into salsa dancing-you never danced before?" Well I like to
brag about everyone here and tell others of how many friends I have made
and the openess to allow all types and levels to get on the dance floor.
Of course I try to recruit anyone I meet to come out. I indicate that
everyone dances with everyone and the guys are much more respectful than
other dance clubs here in town. So yes I hope that we can step back and
look at how good we really have it. Yes ladies should smile and say no
thank you if they are turning down a dance. Take from some one who braved
a NYC club and got rejected WAY more than dancing. Sure it can be a blow
to your ego.....but it's not just about you. It's about the dance and
community.
- dancer for good
Salsa Queen is right about the Red Room. I've only
gone twice and I don't know that I'll go again, because I felt so out
of place. I go to the Jazz Kitchen every week and the Vault frequently,
but at the Red Room, it's always the same crowd, and unless you're part
of it, you're invisible. People always talk about how the salsa scene
is so open and inviting and welcoming, and that's true enough if 1)you're
"fresh meat" for the guys to go after, or 2)you take lots of
lessons and you're in the "in" crowd. I'm no longer fresh meat,
and I'm not as good as alot of the people who are always on the floor
at the Red Room, but I love to dance, and it's really disappointing that
I seem to have hit a long dancing dry spell. I just wish that some of
those really good salseros who always dance with the same three girls
would give us other girls a chance, because they might find out that we're
not half bad! Alot of my female friends feel the same way, and we're all
pretty frustrated. On a side note, I would like to thank Yang for always
asking me and my friends to dance - he knows and is friends with all the
"in" people, but he is constantly reaching out to make others
feel welcome, and to let us enjoy a good dance! I admire and appreciate
it.
- JK Chica
To JK Chica = I agree with you that the Red Room
is a tricky place to get asked to dance if you're not fresh meat or with
the right crowd, which is sad and hurtful to any newbies that come out.
I've put in my time where no one asked me and watched the "in"
crowd ladies dance over and over and over again while I sat there. Last
night at the Red Room, I saw a dancer that took the workshops and probably
takes lessons. I don't think I saw her dance at all...not that she wouldn't,
but did any one ask her?? What a shame I thought on the way home. I've
seen her out several times at the vault and now the red room but she's
rarely is asked to dance. On my way home I felt guilty..I should have
gone over and chatted more with her and maybe introduced her to some of
the dancers I know. While it is tradition for the guys to take the lead
and ask for the dance, I think if the ladies help break down the barriers
that seem to arise, the dance community will benifit in many ways.
- dancer for good
Hmmmm! I see more gals complaining about not been
asked to dance. So I look back at why I would not ask someone to dance.
1) May be she said "no" (rudely) when I asked her to dance.
2) May be she gave me attitude when we were dancing that said "I
am too good for you" . 3) a. May be she was looking around bored
when dancing we were dancing. b. May be I don't get the eye contact and
connection with her when dancing. 4) May be she was one of the gals who
gave me attitude when I was a raw beginner and she was dancing for a while.
Why would I want to dance with her now when she wants to dance with me
only when I have become better and not want to dance with me when I was
struggling. 5) May be she has a very serious (angry) look on her face.
Smile, look happy and look like you like to have fun no matter who ->
applies to both guys and gals. Easier said than done, but you have to
atleast start trying. 6) May be she sits with a group of divas who are
known to take great pleasure in saying rude "no". (Birds of
the same feather theory there). Many of you ladies say that you see guys
dancing with the same 5 or so ladies at the Red room, well if i compare
it to what i have experienced, I dance with the same 5 or so ladies because
when I was struggling and when non of the divas thought that i was good
enough for them, these ladies were my willing victims. Now when I have
become better, surely I would now not want to forget the ones who were
instrumental in helping me become better. I would and will again and again
only look for every opportunity to pay back for all the support, kindness
and help they gave me on my way up. And if you are a smart lady, instead
of complaining and waiting for some expert level guy to come and ask you
to dance, you will if you are looking at dancing long term for the sake
of dancing, TRY to help nature and develop a relationship with a few beginners,
OR atleast invest a lil time in encouraging beginners. But if your expectation
level is much higher, well we know whos fault it is when you are crying
"FOUL". And I find it amusing to read comments from a particular
lady, who quite sometime ago, when I was dancing with her at the RED Room,
about towards the end of a song (not quite over yet) detached herself
from me and asked a good looking friend of mine who was walking by us
to dance. I am sorry to say this, but most women I find are easily given
to Double standards and crying wolf and blaming men for all their miseries.
But refuse to take any responsibility for their cheap actions or want
to be accountable for anything that they do cheap and that appears wrong
to many guys. I wonder if she remembers doing anything like that or may
be like many of her other actions she just chooses not to remember or
be accountable for her actions. Well then I am not surprised that there
are not many guys asking her to dance either and she is crying wolf. Many
a times when we were starting off, me and my friend would psyche our self
up by saying, we are just going to have fun and lower our expectations
on who we want to dance with.... and guess what, we end up having the
best time of our lives. Equivalent thing in gal terms would be to lower
your expectations on which guy you want to be dancing with when you are
at the club, if you want to be only dancing with the best dancer in the
club, nothing wrong with it, all the best there, other wise if you are
tired of waiting, just try the trick of lowering your expectation and
I am sure you will end up having fun more than you expected.
- Vino
Like a lot of guys I've met, I started off with
lots of fears and insecurities about dancing. For a while when I first
started, I would go out and just watch people. Over time, I learned to
just have fun, as my friend, Vino, wrote; and would have an incredible
time letting go - at my my best, void of expectations and fears. Early
on, there were plenty of women who turned me down because I might not
have been good enough, I was White (so they they assumed I couldn't dance)
or they didn't find me attractive. But over time I realized that there
were countless reasons they could be telling me no, many of which had
nothing to do with me - and that the only reason I wasn't going to have
a good time was if I CHOSE NOT TO. That was a process, however, and there
were plenty of times I didn't ask women to dance out of fear of having
experiences like I'd had - LIKE I'D CREATED THROUGH MY INTERPRETATION
- in the past. Now that I have gotten relatively better at dancing salsa,
the tables have turned as far as how people see me in that environment.
Some beginners are intimidated to dance with me, and many more women want
to dance with me than early on. It is nice having that sort of respect,
but reality has not changed, just my place in this small pond. There have
been times more recently, like what surely happened to me in the past,
when women have told me that they were glad I asked them to dance because
they were trying to avoid dancing with some guy because he wasn't any
good. While I love to share experiences, and teach and facilitate the
growth of others, those are the only women I avoid asking to dance. I
don't want to be a part of feeding bad karma, even if I seem to be on
the winning side of it. I go dancing to have fun, not to judge others
or to encourage it. My advice to ladies is the same that I have for men.
When you go salsa dancing, make a commitment to yourself to have fun and
play full out. If something seems to be getting in the way of that, re-commit.
People are attracted to people who are having fun. We all want to be free
of our fears and play full out. So when we see someone doing that, we
realize, "That is what I want my life to look like." And we
are captivated by that person. So whether you go to the Red Room, a salsa
congress, or anywhere, THE ONLY PERSON REPSONSIBLE FOR YOU TO HAVE A GOOD
TIME IS YOU! I am committed to having fun, and re-committing to it when
I fall off the wagon. I hope you choose to join me.
- Chad
Chad, I agree it's about having fun and I do everything
I can to make sure I have a good time by owning my own behavior and feelings,
etc. But, something that guys need to understand is that women cannot
have fun if they are with a guy that dances in certain ways that are BAD.
If he throws her into other people, steps on her toes, twists her arms,
touches her inappropriately, etc, she is NOT going to have fun. Guys LEAD
and therefore have control of the dance. Thus to a very large degree they
have control of the fun factor. It is not bad karma if a woman is avoiding
trying to get hurt or thrown around! When guys understand this, maybe
they won't be so judgemental about women saying "NO" and instead
look at what they might be doing to turn her off instead of blaming her.
What works for one gender doesn't work for the other.
- Noami
Naomi you are right, Guys and Gals have different
problems. If you talk of some guys trying to grab you inappropriately,
I have known of a case where a gal asked a guy to kiss her during the
dance and that guy did not even know her name..... But I Really want to
know your opinion or for that matter of fact any-one.....what do you think
about the case of gal dropping a guy, rather pulling away from the guy
she is dancing with and asking another guy passing by to dance even before
the song ended? 1) Do you think that the 1st guy should ever ask her to
dance? (I doubt he ever would want to) 2) What should he do if she ask
him to dance again? (that atleast surely lowers the chance that he was
behaving inappropriately with her as she felt comfortable to ask him to
dance) TO make it easier, just imagine you or some gal dancing with a
guy, then suddenly even before the song comes to an end, the guy just
pulls away and asks a Hot looking gal passing by to dance! What would
you do? 1) would you ever dance with that person again? 2) would you dance
with that person even if he falls down on his knees and begs you to dance?
- Vino
I just visited Indy for the first time from Kalamazoo
and you guys treated me like royalty. I have nothing but good things to
say about your Salsa scene. As far as dealing with rejection goes well
it didn't happen in Indy and it rarely does for me anyway. I'm no Don
Juan but It's all about tact and choosing your battles. I rarely just
walk up to a woman I don't know and ask her to dance without at least
introducing myself. A little intelligent conversation goes a long way.
I also try to stay away from large groups of women, especially if they
are sitting together. You are inviting disaster (and a long lonely walk
back to your seat) if you think that a woman is going to accept an invitation
from a stranger in front of all her friends. There are always exceptions
but unless you are a glutton for punishment, I would avoid it. Read body
language. If a woman is standing on the edge of the dance floor watching
everyone dance and tapping her feet, she is ready to go now but if she
is in the midst of an intense conversation with someone else, then it
may not be a good time. Timing is important too. Right at the beginning
of a good song is your window of opportunity even for that group of women
I try to avoid. Watch and let someone else get shot down first and if
one of those women does accept, then pounce on the next one. The last
thing a woman wants is for all of her friends to be out dancing while
she is left watching purses. Women in salsa clubs usually go there to
dance and are more than willing to as long as you come correct.
- Greg
Good points, Erin. Though, as a man, I must thank
my stars that I am in England, where the ratio is in favour of us men!
Don't quite agree with you on the way to refuse a dance. No 'excuses',
but how about the fact: 'No thank you, but really I am tired'? Some more
thoughts on asking and being asked, completely from a man's prespective
at http://footknots.blogspot.com/2006/07/thou-shalt.html.
Keep writing!
- Chindu
wow, excellant info, I have a real problem when rejected and some times take it personaly. this will help me in the future, thanks so much.
- average white gut
INtoSalsa, Indy's premier Salsa guide
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